Edward Hopper’s New York 

2022

Transcription: Invitation to Art (a television talk show hosted by Brian O'Doherty), Episode 32: Conversation with Edward Hopper, 1964

Running time: 00:21:19

Brian O’Doherty: Now there's no doubt but that today he is recognized as one of America's immortals in painting, and I'd like you very much to meet him. Well, Mr. Hopper, you came up here by train.

Edward Hopper: That's true. I did. 

Brian O’Doherty: You don't really like flying, do you?

Edward Hopper: No, I don't. I'm afraid of it.

Brian O’Doherty: You're afraid of flying. I guess many …

Edward Hopper: Afraid to die that way. 

Brian O’Doherty: That way, yeah. Well, uh, I think there’s one of the rules of television, you know, that you never sort of say thank you to a person formally. Thank you for being here, that sort of thing. But I think rules are made in many ways by breaking them, and you sir are 70.. 70.. 78, isn't it?

Edward Hopper: That's true.

Brian O’Doherty: And I want to tell you that you do us great honor by being here.

Edward Hopper: Thank you.

Brian O’Doherty: And Mrs. Hopper, who's with you and whom you'll meet later.

Edward Hopper: Mmhmm. 

Brian O’Doherty: Well, you mentioned that your pictures come very slowly.

Edward Hopper: They do. 

Brian O’Doherty: And perhaps you could tell me something about that.

Edward Hopper: Well, it's very hard to define how they come about, but it's a long process of gestation in the mind and a rising emotion, I suppose. But they finally come, perhaps not more than one or two a year, but maybe that's enough. Better than a great many not so good.

Brian O’Doherty: Yeah. Well, do you think about them a long time before you actually paint?

Edward Hopper: I do, and I make various small sketches. Sketches of the thing that I wish to do. Also sketches of details of what I need in the picture. And that's how it comes about eventually.

Brian O’Doherty: You said it's the result of many impressions.

Edward Hopper: That's true. Combined. 

Brian O’Doherty: So, strictly speaking, many of the pictures are not scenes, actual scenes, actual places? 

Edward Hopper: Very few anymore. There was a time when I worked directly from—I call it the fact.

Brian O’Doherty: Yeah.

Edward Hopper: Some call it nature.

Brian O’Doherty: Yeah. 

Edward Hopper: But I do that very seldom now. They're almost all improvised. Do you do many drawings for them now? Yes. Many drawings. Quite often. Many drawings. 

Brian O’Doherty: Well, about the content of your pictures, I think that some people have seen a lot of psychological elements in it: loneliness, isolation, modern man and his man-made environment. How do you feel about that? Do you think that's true?

Edward Hopper: Well, I think that's uh, those are the words of critics. And I can't always agree with what the critics say, you know? It may be true and it may not be true. It's how the—probably how the viewer looks on the pictures, what he sees in them, that they really are. Could that be?

Brian O’Doherty: I guess it could be. What do you think is the content of your pictures? What's your main interest in painting them?  What do you think makes you choose this particular furniture in the picture that's become so very much "Hopper" furniture, as it were? You know, the empty street, the frontage of the house, the dark woods, very often, mysteriously, in right or left. What is it that attracts you in those? Because you have a particular landscape that you've made your own. What's drawn you to it? Have you any idea?

Edward Hopper: Well, I suppose it's just me, but I would like to say what Renoir said, that the important element in the picture cannot be defined, cannot be explained, perhaps is better. That's the way I feel about it.

Brian O’Doherty: You don't feel there's very much future in talking about painting...

Edward Hopper: What?

Brian O’Doherty: You don't feel there's very much future in talking about painting, you just go ahead and do it.

Edward Hopper: Well, no, I don't.

Brian O’Doherty: Yet, you did feel a certain interest in illustration at one time, didn't you, earlier on? The narrative element interested you. You illustrated a number of stories.

Edward Hopper: Well, really illustration really didn't interest me. I was forced into it by an effort to make some money. That's all.

Brian O’Doherty: Yeah.

Edward Hopper: I really had no interest in it. I tried to force myself to have an interest in it, but it wasn't very real.

Brian O’Doherty: I remember once you told me that you read a story by Ernest Hemingway, and you said, "I'd like to illustrate that."

Edward Hopper: Oh, perhaps I did say that. I thought I'd discovered Hemingway. So, I wrote to Scribner's telling them how much I admired Hemingway, and that I'd made a great discovery. Of course, they had discovered him long ago.

[Interviewer laughs]

What other writers have interested you? I think, looking at your work, somebody like Dreiser, Theodore Dreiser, perhaps Sherwood Anderson might have certain affinities or common sympathies.

Edward Hopper: Well, perhaps. I think maybe they're a little too midwestern for me.

Brian O’Doherty: Yeah. 

Edward Hopper: I admire Emerson very much. Of course, he wrote no fiction, but it's all philosophy. Well, I admire him greatly, and read him quite a lot. Read him over and over again.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, let's get back a moment to the actual paintings. The content— many people find as loneliness, isolation, we've mentioned. I don't think that, as you say, is your feeling. What do you feel is the real content of your pictures? What interests you in them?

Edward Hopper: Well, I don't believe I can answer that question.

Brian O’Doherty: How about light?

Edward Hopper: Light? Yes. I'm interested in light, sunlight in particular.

Brian O’Doherty: And I think that magnificent last picture you did, which we're looking at now, which is Second Story Sunlight, the sunlight was the thing that interested you very much, wasn't it?

Edward Hopper: Yes. I attempted to paint a white sunlight rather than yellow, which many painters drop into the habit of painting sunlight as yellow. Sunlight isn't really yellow, except perhaps early in the day and late in the day. Otherwise, to me, it has a white quality.

Brian O’Doherty: Sunlight.

Edward Hopper: Yes. 

Brian O’Doherty: Many of your paintings have been just at that moment of early dawn when things have a certain definitude and definition, and crispness of outline. Many of them, then again, have the same atmosphere that you get from the starkness of sunset and the diminishing of light. Have you ever painted very much or been interested very much in the full blaze of midday sunlight?

Edward Hopper: Yes, I have. I've made several pictures of that character. This one called High Noon, which is perhaps not a glaring success, is sunlight, but it represents that time of day at noon. That picture is owned somewhere in the middle west. I don't know just where, I've forgotten, by a private collector.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, now when you mentioned High Noon, it brings something to my mind. Well, it includes Gary Cooper in it. That was a movie that was made. And I mention movies because I know that you watch them a lot. You're very interested in them.

Edward Hopper: Yes, I am. 

[Interview] And I think it's the observant eye that interests you very much in them, from what you've told me. For instance, I can tell that by dislikes in a way more than likes. I mentioned to you,  the Swedish filmmaker, Bergman, Ingmar Bergman. How do you feel about him?

Edward Hopper: I don't care for his work. It's rather false and sentimental to me, and I don't really care for it. I like some of the French producers very much. There's a picture produced recently that I would like much to see called Breathless. I haven't yet seen it, but I heard it's very fine.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, moving from movies to paintings again, we always talk about influences I suppose. Who do you feel means a lot to you as painters and have influenced your art?

Edward Hopper: Well, I don't think I really have any direct influences. Of course, I admire some of the great ones who most painters admire, Rembrandt, Degas, Courbet. Courbet's landscapes, rather than figures. And most of the great French painters.

Brian O’Doherty: What about the Americans? I mean, you’re so directly in the American tradition, according to every critic who writes, “Mr. Edward Hopper continues a tradition that goes back through Homer to Copley.” Do you feel that?

Edward Hopper: I suppose that is true. I admire Eakins very much. I think he is a world painter, although he has not that reputation as yet. Perhaps he will be, perhaps someday.

Brian O’Doherty: Do you admire Copley very much?

Edward Hopper: His American period, yes.

Brian O’Doherty: And what about Winslow Homer? That many have drawn parallels?

Edward Hopper: Yes. I admire Winslow Homer.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, in all those three that we've mentioned, Eakins, Homer, and Copley, there's a certain lack of rhetoric and of the sort of baroque gesture. Is this something you object to, the artificiality in art? Do you object to that very much?

Edward Hopper: Yes, I do. I do. You don't recall seeing it in either Eakins or Homer or Ryder. There was another painter who is perhaps not hasn't the estimation that he should have, an American painter, and that's Homer Martin. He wasn't always good, but some of his things are excellent.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, now, talking about artificiality in painting, you went to Paris as a young man. Early on, you spent, I think you paid three visits to Paris.

Edward Hopper: Yes, I did. 

Brian O’Doherty: Early on. This was certainly a very complex period, and one in which the artificiality of art insofar as its elements and its organic elements were being juxtaposed and played around with a great deal. Tell me something about the impression Paris had on you then, what it meant to you then?

Edward Hopper: Well, I went to Paris at the time when the “Pointiest” period was just about dying out, but it had been taught to me a great deal, and I was somewhat influenced by it, because perhaps I thought it was the thing that I should do. So the things that I did in Paris, the first things, had decidedly a rather modified “Pointiest” method. But later I got over that, and the later period, things in Paris were more of an order of a kind of the thing that I do now.

Brian O’Doherty: Who did you meet in Paris? Did you meet many of the painters there?

Edward Hopper: No. I met hardly any painters.

[Interviewers] No Picassos, no Braques? No..

Edward Hopper: No.

Brian O’Doherty: No. How about the Americans?

Edward Hopper: Well, I don't think I met any Americans that were of much importance.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, when you came back to America from Paris, it must have been very difficult for you to try and come to terms with a whole new continent that hadn't.

Edward Hopper: yet in many ways, been turned into art, at least not as you saw it.

Brian O’Doherty: Well, it was. Of course, it's an experience of most Americans who have been to Europe for the first time that America seems very crude, and raw, and  unsympathetic to art. And it still is, to some extent.

Brian O’Doherty: Mmhmm. What do you think? I think you have a quotation that is very close to your heart from Goethe. And I was going to ask you what you think is most important to you in art, what art means to you, all those general questions that perhaps you might care to say something about?

Edward Hopper: Well, this quotation is on literature, but it could easily apply to painting. But, I know that many contemporary painters will protest and show the greatest contempt for this quotation, but even so, I'm going to read it. Goethe declared, “The beginning and the end of all literary activity is the reproduction of the world that surrounds me, by means of the world that is in me, all things being grasped, related, recreated, molded, and reconstructed in a personal form and an original manner.” To me, that applies to painting fundamentally. I know there have been so many different opinions on painting now that there will be many who protest, that this is outmoded and outdated, but I think it's fundamental.

Brian O’Doherty: That says it very eloquently. Now, I think that anyone who knows the Hoppers, because I am here in the position of having come between husband and wife, the Hoppers are really inseparable. And I think that we should ask Mrs. Hopper to remedy that and ask her to join us. Mrs. Hopper is also a painter. Here is a painting of the Hoppers, the interior of the Hopper's home, in Cape Cod, which she sees the accidents of her immediate environment again and again, with affection and strength. What you're looking at now is a picture that Mr. Hopper painted of Mrs. Hopper many years ago, which is lucid, and intense, and affectionate. Talking about that picture. Mr. Hopper, you know, you sort of... have been... you know... Mrs. Hopper, how do you feel about that picture? Because, what I'm going to say is this, Mr. Hopper is supposed to play down things in his pictures, play down the emotion. Do you feel that's an affectionate picture, that one he painted of you?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Yes. When I recall things that he has done with people with double chins and grabs right onto things they wouldn't like at all. He didn't do that this time to me.

Brian O’Doherty: I think it's somehow tender in an austere way. Quite effective. You trained as a painter with Robert Henri, didn't you?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Yes, indeed. 

Brian O’Doherty: Do you think a lot of him?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: How could one not? He's a great prophet of our age, I think. He gave so generously to all of us, like the bird that plucks the feathers out of his breast for the young, he did seem to do that very thing.

Brian O’Doherty: You think he's a fine painter, Mrs. Hopper?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Well, I think if you give it all away before you get to the easel, uh, there's a little deficiency of what's...

Brian O’Doherty: He was a generous hearted man. Yes. Generous hearted man, he was.

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Very, very, very tremendously concerned with all of us. Each one, he gave so much to them.

Brian O’Doherty: What do you think of Henri as a painter, Mr. Hopper?

Edward Hopper: I think he was moderately good. Oh.

Brian O’Doherty: You don't agree with that, Mrs. Hopper?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Oh, it’s so ungenerous. 

[Interviewer laughs]

Josephine Nivison Hopper: But you know, men are not grateful creatures.

Brian O’Doherty: You think not?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: No, I don't think so. It's women that are grateful.

Brian O’Doherty: Really?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: And who cares who wants it, who cares about it.

Brian O’Doherty: Oh, I think you're a little hard on us, aren't you?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Well...it seems to me that women are the ones that show the gratitude for little things, and big, and who remember over the years. They remember.

Brian O’Doherty: Yes. Well, now you have, in many ways, been in the position of living with what is an American monument by now, although I don't know how Mr. Hopper would like to hear me describe him as that. And have you found this difficult for your own painting?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Oh, we manage to get on. I have a studio of my own, so I'm out, all my things are out from underfoot, which is very fortunate.

Brian O’Doherty: You know, talking to Mr. and Mrs. Hopper brings a whole era to warm and affectionate remembrance, and names such as Guy Pène du Bois and the Bellows and Reginald Marsh, Reggie Marsh, as you call him, and many others come to mind. I think also there's another person from an era, perhaps one wouldn't associate with you, that comes to mind too. That is Yvette Guilbert.

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Ooh.

Brian O’Doherty: She was a friend of yours. Wasn't she?

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Well, I… I hesitate to say it, that takes such big terms, I saw something of her. She was very good to me. She seemed to take a lot of interest.  It was a thing like Henri again, she was always, the attitude was that for giving.

Brian O’Doherty: She was functioning when you were in Paris wasn't she, Mr. Hopper? Yvette Guilbert, did you go see her?

Edward Hopper: No, I never saw her in Paris. No. I heard about her.

Brian O’Doherty: What did you hear about her?

Edward Hopper: Well, I'd rather not say what I heard about her.

[laughter]

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Well, he—he saw at a time, much too young, too long ago. He was too young, I suppose. But when I met her, she was doing... the last time she was in America, she was doing the... Légende Dorée, medieval things... The death of Christ and the birth of Christ.

Brian O’Doherty: Yes.

Josephine Nivison Hopper: And it was on that program that she asked me to be the little Madonna of the annunciation. Of course, her interpretation, what she did with that, I hadn't heard of anyone else doing it. In the Virgin Walks in the Garden

Brian O’Doherty: Yes. 

Josephine Nivison Hopper: and Meets the Angel Gabriel. And Gabriel tells them not only of the birth of the child, but of the life and the final... Gabriel throws his arms out.

Brian O’Doherty: Yes. 

Josephine Nivison Hopper: And the crucifixion, it’s prophesied.

Brian O’Doherty: I know, it was a very moving thing then. Yes, indeed.

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Of course, maybe just flops for that.

Brian O’Doherty: Wonderful. Well, time is hard on our heels, Mrs. Hopper. Time is hard on our heels. 

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Yes. 

Brian O’Doherty: And just before we finish, perhaps you could each tell me, in one sentence, do you think that—are you satisfied with the position of art as it stands at the moment? Yes or no? With art, modern art at the moment.

Josephine Nivison Hopper: Oh, it's as though we're going through a depression. [Interviewer laughs] What about you, Mr. Hopper?

Edward Hopper: I feel not at all satisfied, but it will reassert itself. The fundamentals will reassert themselves.

Brian O’Doherty: Thank you. Well, you have been listening to two of the foremost citizens in what we might describe as the world of art in America, Mr. and Mrs. Edward Hopper. Thank you very much.

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